September 8, 2012
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What do you believe?
I wrote this once, but the entire post just disappeared for some reason… hmm…
So, I’ve been debating with some friends about the nature of the Bible over the past few days. Some of you know what my beliefs are, but I am interested in yours. Here are a few questions I have for you:
What is your religion?
What is the Bible?
What is the “word of God”?
What does it mean to be “divinely inspired”?
Why is the Bible important?
Does the Bible include anything that you would consider to be errors, fallacies, contradictions, or anything of the like?
The intent of these questions is not to start an argument. In fact, I really discourage you from arguing, as I will be deleting comments if I have to.
I know you are tempted, but don’t do it!But if your interested, please answer these questions thoughtfully. Rec this too, because I am really interested in seeing the wide variety of opinions out there!
Comments (39)
What is your religion? – None
What is the Bible? – A work of fiction, or interpretation of the world by “ancient” peoples.
What is the “word of God”? – A Christian term for the Bible.
What does it mean to be “divinely inspired”? – I would assume as a non-believer, it just means doing what is right or good an then calling it directions from God.
Why is the Bible important? – It isn’t important to me, but it is to others. I’m sure they each have their own reasons.
Does the Bible include anything that you would consider to be errors, fallacies, contradictions, or anything of the like? – I think so, yes. The 10 commandments say “Thou Shalt Not Kill” and yet there are many laws in Lev. and Deut. that end with “shall be stoned/put to death.” So I find that kind of bizarre. Beyond that, talking snake, fire and brimstone from the sky, parting the sea, Jesus coming back from the dead.
What is your religion? – Christian
What is the Bible? – A collection of ancient texts, passed down through many generations which includes Jewish history, their interactions with God, the words of Jewish prophets, the chronicles of various people of the beginnings of the Christian church and Jesus’ life and teachings, etc.
What is the “word of God”? – Jesus. (I love the poetry in John 1 depicting Jesus as the Word. Some of my favorite verses are from there.)
What does it mean to be “divinely inspired”? – People heard what God was saying and tried their best to put it into writing and pass the wisdom on to the next generation.
Why is the Bible important? – It’s the most comprehensive collection of writings we have about our religion. Though other documents and personal stories are important, the Bible serves as a rough “North” that the Christian compass must point toward in order to be considered a consistent religion.
Does the Bible include anything that you would consider to be errors, fallacies, contradictions, or anything of the like? – Several, and a lot of the early stories were not written down, and so are more folklore or metaphorical in my opinion. I have heard that many of the stories about Israel conquering other nations were exaggerated because whoever writes the history can say whatever they want. Also, ideas changed with the times. The New Testament world was far different than the Old Testament one, and both are far different than today. I feel that many of the contradictions and fallacies are in part due to these differences.
Religion – Christianity
What is the Bible? The Bible is a collection of books (~60). The books were each individually inspired by God and contain God’s continuing revelation to a fallen word.
The word of God – The word of God is God’s revelation to people. It takes many forms, one of them being the Bible. Other forms are – preaching, prophesy, dreams, teaching, hospitality, visions (Spiritual gifts seem to be the main form in which the word of God is acted out in the world).
What is divine inspiration – Divine inspiration is the act of God inspiring a person to do something for His Kingdom purposes. I think there may be different “levels” (that’s a bad word for it) of inspiration. I think the Bible is specially inspired – more inspired than say a pastors sermon.
Why is the Bible important – The Bible is important because it contains God’s revelation, through time, to His people. It is important insomuch as we don’t have a better – more authoritative word from God. My faith isn’t dependent on the Bible, although it is enhanced by the Bible.
Does the Bible contain errors, etc… – I wouldn’t call them errors. The authors were writing with what they knew. Each community had a different idea of God and his revelation and it comes across in the Bible. John’s gospel is very different from Mark’s gospel.
“What is your religion?”
Don’t have one. Religion to me usually seems… irreligious.
“What is the Bible?”
A collection of many books from different times, cultures and authors which espouse radically different philosophies and systems of ethics but have been lumped together and called infallible.
“What is the “word of God”?
The “word of men”.
“What does it mean to be “divinely inspired”?”
I honestly don’t know, you’d have to ask the people who claimed to be inspired. I’d love to hop in a time machine and give them a brain scan while they were writing scripture, I’m sure that would produce fascinating data. I suspect though that “inspiration” and “possession” is just the feeling that something external is influencing your thoughts and actions, which is most easily explained by the fact that we have a conscious and unconscious mind. I imagine people felt drawn to god the way when I’m attracted to a beautiful woman I feel literally like I’m being pulled toward her by some kind of emotional gravity. It doesn’t feel like it’s coming from me and I can’t control it, but that’s because it’s coming from my unconscious mind. Remember 2,000 years ago all inspiration was believed to be supernatural, including blood lust in war, artistic inspiration etc. I think if we’re critical of the notion of divine inspiration we will be just as hesitant to conclude the bible was literally “inspired” than we would that a song or painting came directly from god. Or the compulsions of a religious serial killer or anything else that feels like it comes from somewhere outside of us.
“Why is the Bible important?”
I honestly don’t mean any offense by this, but I don’t think it is. I mean there is some really beautiful stuff in the bible but it’s no more beautiful to me than the teachings of buddha or confucius or the tao te ching or the sayings of ghandi or I’m sure countless other philosophies. And in terms of the impact on society, while the bible has had a huge impact on the world I think if any other 66 books had been the only legal form of moral teaching in the roman empire, then been enforced as the only legal form of moral teaching by the catholic church and dozens of monarchies, they’d have had a huge impact too.
“Does the Bible include anything that you would consider to be errors, fallacies, contradictions, or anything of the like?”
Many, many, many of all three. Parts of the bible say to burn people to death, or kill witches that don’t even exist and never have. In the king james bible (which many people maintain is infallible) there are nine references to unicorns. Half of the teachings of jesus were a repudiation of the founding texts of “his” religion. The gospels give 4 different versions of jesus’ last words. The bible gives two entirely different accounts of judas’ death (both of which conveniently fit the prophecies) and even gives jesus’ father two different fathers (both of whom conveniently fit the prophecies as well). I could go on literally for hours. The bible condones virtually every evil act there is.
@tgwiy - Actually it says you shall not murder – capital punishment has never been considered murder and the witches, gays etc are considered guilty and deserving of death as we would consider a murderer today. Granted I think the bible is riddled with contradictions (see my response above if you like) but this isn’t one of them as far as I know.
What is your religion?
I’ve never had a religion, and since high school I’ve identified as an atheist.
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What is the Bible?
The Bible is the canonized Christian scripture. I see it as a bit of history, a bit of culture, some philosophy, and chunks of superstition stitched together in a fantastic quilt.
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What is the “word of God”?
The will of God transmitted through a human medium. I kind of imagine it as telepathic email, “FWD: New Testament update.”
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What does it mean to be “divinely inspired”?
For the contents scripture to be largely dictated by God through a human medium.
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Why is the Bible important?
The Christian faith had been a cornerstone of Western culture since its adoptation as the Roman state religion. In the United States, Christianity– directly or not– plays a large role in its founding (pilgrims & puritans), in its politics, and in its culture. The Bible is the prism with which to understand all of this. Shine a light through it and we get a better understanding of Western culture, conflicts, history, and arts.
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Does the Bible include anything that you would consider to be errors, fallacies, contradictions, or anything of the like?
Absolutely.
From the historical copies, we see clear evidence of substantive deletions, insertions, and editing by scribes– some of it is accidental, a lot of it isn’t. Even in the modern, accepted copies of the Bible, there is strong evidence that epistles attributed to Paul were in fact forged. More critically, there is very strong argument that the gospels of the New Testament were not written by the men their authorsp is traditionally and popularly attributed to.
The Bible is also litered with unfulfilled prophecies and interal contradictions. A lot of its claims of science and history don’t line up with what with the evidence from natural and human history.
@crevis05 - “What is the Bible? The Bible is a collection of books (~60). The books were each individually inspired by God and contain God’s continuing revelation to a fallen word. “
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The early Church Fathers were faced witht he icky task (by icky, I mean important and difficult) of sorting truly inspired scripture from forgaries and fakes. It was only after canonization that the books that we know to make up the New Testament were put together.
Do you believe that this process– of correctly recognizing the divine influence of the New Testament book and not leaving any out– was likewise divinely inspired? Or, instead, is it that you have confindence that the process was sufficiently rigiorous and complete as to get the job done without hint or influence from God?
@Ooglick - “What does it mean to be “divinely inspired”? – People heard what God was saying and tried their best to put it into writing and pass the wisdom on to the next generation.”
“Does the Bible include anything that you would consider to be errors, fallacies, contradictions, or anything of the like? – Several, and a lot of the early stories were not written down, and so are more folklore or metaphorical in my opinion… The New Testament world was far different than the Old Testament one, and both are far different than today. I feel that many of the contradictions and fallacies are in part due to these differences.”
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How do you feel about the consisteny and accuracy of the New Testament itself?
And as the books of the NT were divinely inspired, do you suppose there is a good chance that some fo the details may have been lost or distorted by God’s human medium?
(I imagine it might be a bit like playing God’s imax-quality ideas on the screen of an Apple II computer– nuance and meaning are inevitably loss through the choice means of projection.)
@Celestial_Teapot - They weren’t forged, but he likely dictated them. Evidence suggests that he either wasn’t literate in Aramaic or simply couldn’t write very well.
I love these answers. Thank you everybody for being willing to share. I wrote my answers offline and it’s cool to come back and read the ones here, too.
What is your religion?
Christian, currently a member of an American Baptist church, with strong influences from the Episcopal Church, the Quakers and Franciscans. I’m happy to be ecumenical/nondenominational.
What is the Bible? A collection of books written and canonized by people because of their beauty, power and for the doctrine they support. I do believe these books – and many more throughout humankind – were written with grace and wisdom and reveal to us much about their writer’s understanding of God.
What is the “word of God”? The Christ, our Redeemer, Healer and Beloved, from Whom the world is made.
What does it mean to be “divinely inspired”? I hope every person has glimpsed this experience, some moment of transcendence, some act of creativity, love or insight which feels far beyond their personal capacity and feels deeply true.
Why is the Bible important? These books were beloved by our ancestors, prayed with, argued over, carried at great personal cost. They tell the story of our people’s love with the Divine. That in itself is awe inspiring and compelling to me. On a personal level, I find continual prayer with Scripture to be a source of personal spiritual growth.
The texts are so troubling in many cases and yet are so rich. Even where the stories told feel foreign and perplexing to me they can prompt me at least to pray, “Lord, how was this some people’s experience of You?”
Does the Bible include anything that you would consider to be errors, fallacies,
contradictions, or anything of the like?
It’s rife with them, as are we all.
After I posted and read some, I notice that we aren’t asked to share whether we read the Bible as literally, historically true. And I just want to clarify that while I trust that some of the stories were inspired by personal experience and are attempts at documenting historical understandings, I don’t think that even such potentially “factual” bits – measurements, headcounts, lineages, etc were written entirely without hyperbole or poetry – or at very least a very different cultural understanding of “factual.”
I read all of Scripture - and usually where I quote Scripture, such as where I speak of Christ being from Whom all things are made – with the classic four ways of understanding Scripture: literal, allegorical, moral and mystical – these four ways of reading have long been meant to coexist, although they are sometimes depicted as a ladder, such that the mystical reading is the most potent and the literal (which is not the same as “factual”) that of the shallowest understanding. So when I say Christ is from Whom the world is made (note: not *was*) I’m not imagining a primordial Jesus-man giving birth to the universe – but I’m also not averse to that image depicted in art or poetry, it can be very powerful.
@Celestial_Teapot - The New Testament books are written by several different people. (And some scholars will say that they weren’t the people whose names are on the books.) The gospels were written years after the fact, so perhaps some details were lost or misremembered. I think that the overall behavior and teachings of Jesus are reflected, though. And I’m hopeful that the writers were trying their very best to be divinely inspired while writing them. I’m sure even they had their doubts though. Paul mentions it in one of his letters that he thinks that there should be a certain way of doing something, but he isn’t sure that it comes from God, it’s just how he thinks God would want it. (I for the life of me can’t remember what exactly it was- I think it might be where he’s talking about being single as better than being married.)
@Celestial_Teapot - Also, I must say- as a Christian I HOPE that some of the things in the Bible are forged or misremembered. I’d much rather have a Bible that is contradictory and full of mistakes than a God who is contradictory and full of mistakes!
Catholic.
The Bible is the Word of God. It is a what, it is The Book.
The Word of God is a Who. The Father is beyond us and our understanding. He chose Jesus to be the messenger, the Way, The Word. Jesus is The Word — when he spoke, that was His Word that came from The Father. When Jesus walked, cried — all his actions — these are also His Word.
Divinely inspired means following God, not our own ways, not our own ideas… Jesus said he has doing the will of the Father, not his own will. In our own imperfect ways, we too can follow God — we are all expected to follow God. I feel the Catholic Church aids me in this in a very special way. If left with the Bible but no Church, I might go the wrong way, and the Spirit might be saying no that’s not what it means, but I might not be listening — so, I need the Church.
The Bible is very important because is shows us how to live. God made us, and knows what we need.
I see the Bible as pointing out our own errors in thinking. The logic of events challenge our logic. Like when a guy sins, his punishment is that something bad happens to his offspring — if we are all separate discreet entities this is illogical; maybe though, we are all linked in ways we can’t see.
@agnophilo - It’s “Thou Shalt Not Kill” in the KJV.
Beyond that, I think it’s a petty splitting of hairs on the Christians’/translators’ parts in other versions of the Bible.
@Ooglick - True dat. Though I don’t believe in a supernatural origin of scripture.
@tgwiy - Yeah, it wasn’t written in english. I believe the word translated as “kill” was synonymous with murder. But hey, I’m not a linguist, and even if I were it’s a 2,000 year old dead language, fag meant cigarette 50 years ago so who knows.
@Celestial_Teapot - I think it’s divinely inspired insomuch as a Christians everyday life should be inspired by God. Even before the New Testament became canon, early Christians had a good idea of what was “of God” and what wasn’t. Justin Martyr referred to some writings of Paul and the Gospels as scripture (inspired) by God. So the way I look at the official canonization of scripture is more of a formality. These books were already important, and now we have a consensus. I hope that makes sense.
@agnophilo - @tgwiy - There’s 7 different Hebrew words for kill and the one used in Exodus 20 for the 10 commandments is the only time that particular Hebrew word is used.
@crevis05 - The problem is hitler thought genocide was “of god”. So did moses. Going on faith or feelings just means if you’re an asshole you will think god’s probably an asshole too, and if you’re a nice person you will think god’s a nice person too. But to quote stephen weinberg (nobel prize winning physicist) “With or without [religion] you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”
@musterion99 - That clarifies nothing, lol.
@agnophilo - It clarifies as you said, that the word used in Exodus is not the same as the one used for capital punishment.
@musterion99 - Okay – so you’re saying I’m right or not?
@agnophilo - That is a very legitimate concern. I don’t want to just say Hitler obviously wasn’t really doing God’s work – I think it’s more difficult than that (even though I don’t think He was doing God’s work). I don’t have a good way to make sense of the genocide in the Bible. It sits in stark contrast to the loving Jesus we see in the New Testament. And to what you said, I don’t have a good answer.
@crevis05 - It’s the danger of assuming god is communicating with us or our feelings come from god. A good person who is christian might assume the urge to help someone who is hurt or starving comes from god – but so too someone who feels disgust when they see an interracial couple might assume that’s god communicating with them. I don’t think either is god communicating with anyone, I don’t see any objective evidence that a god (if there is one) communicates with anyone. Give ten people ten different bits of scripture and god supposedly helps them to interpret it ten different ways. To me that means either god is lying to nine of them or they’re just pointing to something inside themselves and assuming that thing is god – their intuition, conscience, feelings, instincts, bias, whatever.
You might find this interesting, it sort of illustrates this point.
@agnophilo - I’m saying you’re right. There are different meanings of the word kill.
@musterion99 - Alrighty. Thanks.
@agnophilo - I think that’s a very good point. People do read scripture with a bias and pretend it’s God. A pattern starts to develop. People start to read scripture to validate their own opinions and beliefs. Today at my college a “fire and brimstone” preacher was preaching up a storm in the quad. I understand I don’t know the man, but I would imagine he sees God and reads the Bible through a lens of “everyone is damned to hell”. It’s not productive or healthy (or even true).
Now, I obviously do disagree with you about God revealing himself to people. I can’t really give you any proof of it. The only thing I could really do is try to explain the times I’ve thought or felt God speaking to me.
@crevis05 - I’ve heard christians describe their spiritual experiences and short of rolling around on the floor speaking in tongues or hallucinations, I can relate to almost every supposedly supernatural feeling I’ve had described to me. I mean there’s no way to know for sure the same way I can’t know that what I call blue and what you call blue looks the same in both of our heads – but I really really think that I’m feeling a lot of the same things religious people are, and people of different religions and even secular spiritual philosophies do too. What christians call grace sounds a lot like what buddhists call enlightenment or nirvana.
I once knew a guy who was really into his bible, could quote chapter and verse off the top of his head – we would argue about evolution and whatnot and he would say his faith was unshakable. I lost touch with him for like 6 months and then gave him a call to touch base and he said he wasn’t christian anymore. I was shocked and asked why – he said the two main things were a) the concept of god being good and sending people to hell bothered him, but mainly b) he read the tao te ching (a chinese philosophical text written about 600 years before jesus was born) and he was so moved by how simple and beautiful the philosophy was and he suddenly realized that what he was feeling was exactly what he felt when he read the bible. He said most believers see it as communion with god but that now he realizes it’s not something unique to the bible or christianity. Richard dawkins has been “accused” of being devoutly religious because he waxes poetic about the beauty of nature and sounds like a preacher. Einstein said (after refuting the claims of his belief in a god) that if there was anything in him that could be called religious it was an unbounded admiration for the structure of the universe so far as our science can reveal it. He was a very spiritual man, but he got that feeling from studying nature. If you search “greatest sermon ever” on youtube the top hit is an atheist astrophysicist giving a talk about cosmology and the spiritual feelings it brings out in him (link). It’s a good video btw and actually touches on what we’re talking about.
By the way sorry to ramble, and feel free to describe your own experiences. I’m always interested to know why people believe what they do, how they feel about it etc.
@agnophilo - I think people experience the supernatural or spiritual in similar ways – whether they are Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Native American, etc… Experiencing “god” isn’t unique to Christianity. I’m sure my experiences aren’t that different than yours.
The closest to God I’ve ever felt was in a dream. All I saw was this light and I felt a burning sensation all over. It wasn’t like fire burning. John Wesley said about an experience he has was his heart was strangely warmed. I felt like I was loved. I’m convinced that was God.
@crevis05 - If you don’t mind me asking – why? Why not be convinced it was allah? It’s just as arbitrary. Or take it as you would any other feeling in a dream. If I heard a voice in my head telling me to do things would it be logical to assume it was aliens communicating with me? Or satan or communists using the fillings in my teeth? I don’t see how people can reach objective conclusions about the world based on subjective experiences.
@agnophilo - My relationship with God is very subjective. The only evidence I really have of God being real is when I see people doing good for other people. I see God at work when that Amish community forgave the guy who gunned them down. I see God’s hand in a lot of places and yes that is subjective. You can easily dismiss it as nature or good people doing good things. The world makes way more sense to me if there is a god.
@crevis05 - I don’t see how.
What is your religion? Christian
What is the Bible? the word of God
What is the “word of God”? the Bible
What does it mean to be “divinely inspired”? Given by God… influenced by Him.
Why is the Bible important? For teaching, history… to understand the covenant and show us Christ.
Does the Bible include anything that you would consider to be errors, fallacies, contradictions, or anything of the like? If you ask me, it depends on the translation, and though I’m not theologian or Greek or Hebrew scholar, I have yet to find a perfect translation and find myself relying on the discernment of the Holy Spirit as I study the scriptures.
Though these are my answers, I’m still a little bit on the fence and am certainly looking for some answers myself in my ultimate understanding and defining conclusions about the bible.
@agnophilo - you intrigue me.
@xXrEMmUsXx - Thanks I suppose : ) Feel free to browse my blog for more of my opinions if you like.
And to the OP in addition to my earlier answer to the questions about the bible, I would like to add this.
@agnophilo - though our views are quite different, there is something very respectable about you that makes me want to understand you =] I’m sure I’ll take a look around…
@xXrEMmUsXx - Alrighty, thanks I suppose. I try to have intellectual integrity.
@agnophilo - you do have intellectual integrity =]
@xXrEMmUsXx - Again, thank you.