June 5, 2011
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God, Suffering, and Evil
I worked at a video rental store for five years. In that time, I met all of our regular customers. One of our regulars was a man named Paul.
Whenever Paul would come in, I knew it would be bad. He’d spend hours in the store talking. That’s great because I love talking with people, but he talked so much, whoever would be working on the days he’d come in would fall behind in their work. This happened just about every week. The man either loved to talk, or he hated being at home. We never figured out which.
The topics he would always choose to talk to me about were ones that never really struck my fancy. He talked a lot about guns and his time in the FDA, as well as his time as a marine. As a Christian peacemaker and a revolutionist, opposed to government, I tried to stray from putting in my opinion. He was very headstrong and always spoke what was on his mind, and frankly, I didn’t want to create a conflict of interest situation. I mainly just smiled and nodded.
One day, he asked what I was in school for. I told him “Youth Ministries”.
“Oh, so you want to be a minister, huh?”
“Yes, sir.” I said.
His reaction was heartbreaking.
“You know… I don’t know what to believe about God. They say He’s all knowing and all loving, but when bad things happen to innocent people, no one can give a good answer as to where God is in that situation.”
I nodded in agreement while listening.
“My eight year old daughter became very sick… and in a matter of weeks, she died. Now tell me, where was God when she was suffering? Was she suffering for a purpose? And what kind of sick God would make such a young girl suffer and die at such a young age? I asked my priest. He couldn’t answer. I asked pastor after pastor and they couldn’t answer. I decided to walk away from Church. I don’t know if there is a good answer, but if there is, I haven’t found it yet. Why such a little girl? What could she have done that caused God to want to take her life? No eight year old girl should go though that. And you know what, no father should have to hold his eight year old girl as she takes her last breath.”
He began to mellow a bit.
“I do believe in God. These men who claim to represent God… they don’t know what it’s like to lose a daughter. And if they can’t explain why God would want my daughter’s life, why should I trust the direction they are sending me?”
Sometimes, the phrase “The Lord works in mysterious ways” just isn’t enough.
The problem of suffering and evil has driven many people away from the church. They want to believe in God. They want to go back to Church. But how can they trust God? Why do these bad things happen?
So what about suffering and evil? Are these things God’s fault? Are they part of God’s plan? Surely, God weeps when eight year old girls get sick and die.
I think in situations like these, we have to remember that God, although all powerful, is not in full control. He doesn’t choose when someone will get sick, when someone will die, when someone will be kidnapped, when someone will get murdered, when someone will get raped, etc. He’s relinquished some of his control. We are subject to our natural world and all of it’s acts of nature. We are also under our own control and are subject to others and their actions. At the same time, we can’t altogether rule out the metaphysical aspect, as well. The principalities and powers that come to tempt us and harm us play a role in some of the suffering and evil that goes on in this world.
Does God let bad things happen? Yes. God gave up full control because giving up full control shows that he really loves us.
Does God cause bad things to happen? No. He gave up full control and gave us free wills. We are also subject to nature. The demonic also plays a part in suffering and evil.I don’t know if this answer would have been good enough for Paul. Maybe he’ll come to this conclusion in time. I hope he does.
Comments (27)
I think in situations like these, we have to remember that God, although all powerful, is not in full control.
Yes, although I would rather word it as God chooses to not be in control. But even that decision is a decision of control because he made it.
He doesn’t choose when someone will get sick, when someone will die, when someone will be kidnapped, when someone will get murdered, when someone will get raped, etc.
That I don’t completely agree with. I agree that he doesn’t choose the time of death for everyone but I believe he does for some. And I believe that there are times he may choose to judge someone with sickness.
We are subject to our natural world and all of it’s acts of nature. We are also under our own control and are subject to others and their actions. At the same time, we can’t altogether rule out the metaphysical aspect, as well. The principalities and powers that come to tempt us and harm us play a role in some of the suffering and evil that goes on in this world.
That I also agree with.
Does God let bad things happen? Yes. God gave up full control because giving up full control shows that he really loves us.
Agree, and it allows us the choice to love him.
Does God cause bad things to happen? No. He gave up full control and gave us free wills. We are also subject to nature. The demonic also plays a part in suffering and evil.
The bible is filled with examples where God causes bad things to happen. But it doesn’t mean that everything bad that happens was caused by him.
If I was a open theist–then perhaps.
@musterion99 - So you are pretty much almost on the same page with me. The only difference is in how we interpret scripture. When bad things happen, even in the case of judgment, I never see God doing them, but instead, I see God handing the wrongdoer over to the workings of nature, his actions, the actions of the demonic, or the actions of others. So basically, it isn’t God putting someone in a certain position, the person, through his or her actions, put himself in that position. I believe the Bible shows God warning people not to do certain things, simply because he knows that the outcome would be hurtful. It’s like when Israel wanted a king. God told them no, that he was their king and if they got a king, they would regret it. But the people insisted, so God gave them a king… and as usual, God was right. They regretted it. He handed them over to their own doing.
@llamalima - I think I’m only half an open-theist. I am a lot more open to it then I used to be… but the idea of God not knowing the future simply because it hasn’t happened yet is an idea that I’m not comfortable with, although, I do believe it to be an idea that is biblical.
I would be interested in a post about it in the future. At the moment, my foremost reason for not believing it is that it removes the need for an explanation for why God does “bad” things. It seems like a cop-out as opposed to a real theological position. I’m not being malicious–but I think that open-theism is trying to rationalise the mind of God using a human’s eyes.
I’m also going to say I’m not able to say God’s not in full control. Yikes, even typing that makes me feel weird. What I will say is that I don’t think people in grief are looking for theology. Even old grief like Paul’s that has hardened into a sort of nagging angry ache, despite the fact that it is incredibly universal for humans to ask “Why?!” in their grief. I don’t think they are asking us human companions. They may think they are – but it is our mistake (those of us outside this particular grief, witnessing this question) to presume they are addressing us. This, I suspect, is the failing of so many pastors. Because no human answer will satisfy. I could argue that the Bible was written to explore this very question “Why do we suffer?” I think it is an ancient question, deep in our bones. And it is for each of us to be broken up against the fullness of it. To come to the place where words will not suffice, where all theology is meaningless, “whistling in the wind” as they say. I don’t think God orchestrates violence in order that we come to that place – that’s not what I’m saying. I think it is important to honor that place when people share their grief with us. To allow them the horror of falling into that bottomless place and not try to talk sense to them or try to make it all feel all right or tell them what God means by it. Admitting our ignorance is a brave first step of walking with someone. Allowing it to be senseless, allowing that wild “Why!?” to stand alone as prayer. It *is* prayer, it is one of the truest prayers. You can name it as such, if that seems right, allow that person who both loves and rages against God to know they are committing no crime in their pain. If it is appropriate, invite them to pray with Psalm 22, to understand that Jesus prayed this fierce prayer from the cross, it is ok to be so confused, so lost. Somehow the desperation gives way to joy – not because it all suddenly makes sense – it doesn’t. And it won’t. Trying to find explanations makes this all about our heads and our logic and reason – rather the grieving are at the door to the peace which passes understanding. That is their invitation, to surpass understanding and simply be graced with peace. Theology is for those of us who have the luxury of being outside of yawning pain for the moment. I don’t think theology can ever assuage true grief and it has been the reason so many hurt people turned away from the church, because someone attempted to explain away their suffering.
@gayXianmom - This comment reminded me that theology is for the theologically minded. Thanks for that
@llamalima - I may post about it. Here is something I’ve got for you though: “I think that open-theism is trying to rationalize the mind of God using a human’s eyes.” Isn’t it safe to say that that is the very essence of theology in general?
@jmallory - :) Thanks – I’m glad you took it that way – my response sort of surprised me with its fierceness and I was hoping I didn’t offend!
@jmallory - Yes, we’re close in agreement.
When bad things happen, even in the case of
judgment, I never see God doing them, but instead, I see God handing the
wrongdoer over to the workings of nature, his actions, the actions of
the demonic, or the actions of others.
There are examples where God clearly says that he is the one doing the judgment. I agree that sometimes it’s the workings of nature etc, but not in all cases.
So basically, it isn’t God putting someone
in a certain position, the person, through his or her actions, put
himself in that position.
I agree but God then chooses to judge them because of their choices. Such as when God judged the children of Israel in the wilderness and killed thousands of them.
@llamalima - I got my dose of open theism from Greg Boyd – several of his books but most notably “God At War” and “Satan and the Problem of Evil.” One glance through those substantial tomes and you’ll see that they consist almost entirely of Scripture exegesis – he offers very few simple opinons without tons of Scriptural analysis. The basic premise being that some of our traditional theological positions regarding sovereignty, foreknowledge, etc. do not line up with what the Bible actually says. In a way, his arguments seem more “theologically astute” than more traditional positions.
Sometimes, the phrase “The Lord works in mysterious ways” just isn’t enough
Truer words were never spoken.
I remember delving into theodicy as I first started questioning my faith. None of my spiritual leaders, or the books they recommended to me, answered questions to my satisfaction.
The idea that god doesn’t make bad things happen, to me, also seems to point to the concept that god also wouldn’t make good things happen. I’ve always found attributing all the good things to god and all the bad things to something else (nature, original sin, the devil, etc) to be a cop out. We know from the Bible that YHWH does some things that most of us from our mortal perches would see as bad or evil. Commanding murder, creating natural disasters, etc.
I think a lot of suffering is caused by people themselves. Except that others don’t know or won’t realize. It can be said, we’re the greatest threats to ourselves and to our species. It’s not god himself but people doing these things. We suffer because we like to suffer somehow O.o I know too many examples to put forward. Though I think people are influenced by evil things or that they don’t know any better. And it’s so much easier to act bad than good.
We do have free will after all and that is one of the greatest gifts we could have.
@A_Piano_Tuner - That’s who I got my example of open theism from… He is the most convincing pastor I’ve ever heard.
@Diva_Jyoti_3 - We all look for answers to why bad things happen. I like what @gayXianmom commented.
@GodlessLiberal - That’s if you take it at face value, though. Often times, cultural context helps smooth the edges. We know from Jesus’ revelation of God that He is against injustice and against violence… that He is love. I do think that good things happen as a result of natural consequence too. However, prayer is not coercive, but it is persuasive. God will never force his
will on us, but he will allow humankind to work together with him. As far as God creating natural disasters and commanding murder, I think it’s very possible that those are things that His people attributed to God simply because it worked to their advantage. With what we know about the way the world works now, along with Christ’s revelation of God, to me, it seems safe to say that God loves everyone and desires us to follow him. But that’s just my understanding right now.
@Hinase - Yes
@jmallory - I have this bizarre, unexplained, inordinately comprehensive faith, all consuming faith. Nobody busts my chops on xanga too much for it though because I’m not a textbook Christian kind of believer. so I get a pass. :whew:
I have trouble with this seemingly very simple question. We live in a world in which everything we humans create breaks, falls apart, fails. How is it, when living in a world filled with death and decay, we humans can ask “why”? We see birth, aging, deteriorating, death and decay all over the planet every single day. Most of us experience four seasons, so we see the cycle of birth and death throughout our lives. I believe it is tragic when a little girl dies, but we have seen death over and over again. It is impossible for an adult not to have seen that death knows no age, class/economic level, people group, sex and etc. We are imperfect beings, and man’s inhumanity to humanity is, perhaps, the best chronicled issue in history. We are surrounded 24/7/365 with birth, death, along with the travails and joys betwixt and between. If God is an all powerful God, doesn’t save an 8 year old girl, the question isn’t, “Why did he let her die,” but rather, “Why did he give her life at all??” Why would a truly loving God allow life at all? Anyone here sorry to be alive? All of us have times when life stinks like rancid road kill baking in the Summer sun. It is impossible for any of us to escape this place without terrors and pain, life and death.
Instead of looking at a beautiful and ugly world with honest eyes and assessing life as a very short lived gift, we should value highly, we blind and embitter ourselves with pointless blame laying. Everything which lives dies. Whether a life lasts 8 or 80 years the question to be asked is: “Did I treat this life as a gift; did I lavish this life with love and honor; Did I treasure this life???” God has given us life, knowing it will end, but that it never ends for him. “God is the God of the living, not the dead.” So whether a life is 8 days, 8 minutes, 8 or 80 years, in a temporary world, the question is, “What did we do with that life while we had it?” For God the person isn’t dead at all. Death is only a standard we’re forced to endure.
This is easily the number one thing that drives people to reject God. Even those preaching long and hard that they only believe what is scientifically proven to them, when off guard almost always bring this up, as the issue that started their rejection. In other words this is the real reason, the rest was just added to strengthen their already formed opinion.
For some it is not hard to understand that God gave up some control of this world. That the evil in it is not God’s but our rejection of God. The world is not fully under Gods control. Yes he allows evil and that is totally necessary to free will. This is not heaven this is the world of man.For others it just not possible for them to accept that a loving God would give us the world we wanted. I world that we rule is not fully under God’s control.
oh man. what a touchy subject. it’s like returning soldier’s questioning God “why me? why am I still alive?”
My thoughts are… that there is a greater plan that we know nothing of. Who are we to question it? Then again, not everyone is a Christian or follows doctrines. /shrug
We can only for the best for people like him.
The question Paul might ask next is “What kind of god would willingly give up control and allow so many innocent people to needlessly die?” If he’s so loving why not put a stop to such horror?
@jmallory - ““I think that open-theism is trying to rationalize the mind of God using a human’s eyes.”Isn’t it safe to say that that is the very essence of theology in general?”
Haha, touche.
Perhaps not precisely written. I meant it in the sense that what we would expect that WE would do, and applying it to God. We wouldn’t expect God to send all this suffering upon us, because we are applying our own ideas of what God should be like to the situation. Idk, I can’t say much more because I do not know much about open-theism. =)
@A_Piano_Tuner - I have read a bit of Greg Boyd, namely “Letters to a Skeptic” as well as another book which the title eludes me at the moment. I am in agreement with you that Greg Boyd is a honest writer and he is quite astute. =)
I have a hard time believing a supposedly all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving God either causes or allows major tragedies to happen to the innocent.
the song Oh my God by jars of clay….
@lonelywanderer2 - Can you go a little further into that? Possibly in a blog?
Only by understanding Jesus’ reason for coming into the world can we understand the nature of suffering as it pertains to human beings.
And you didn’t mention Jesus even once.
@LoBornlytesThoughtPalace - That’s because my understanding of Jesus is that he IS God. In anycase, I did say the name Jesus in some comments.
@jmallory - The Jews and Muslims say the word, God, too. But only Christians have a full understanding of how suffering relates to man and God.
The theology behind human suffering is critical to the Gospel.
@jmallory - I’ll start it brewing in my mind today!
@LoBornlytesThoughtPalace - You and I are in full agreement.