August 21, 2011
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Evolution For Christians
I believe that many Christians have a false idea about the theory of evolution. I believe this, because I had a false idea about evolution.
From what I understood- and what I was taught by my church- and what my friends told me- and what I read in certain creationism books, evolution was this idea that humankind came from monkeys. I thought that sounded a little fishy… Obviously, something didn’t sound right with that. So I always believed what I was told; we came from Adam and Eve no more than 10,000 years ago.
I kept hearing what evolution actually was, but I kept plugging my ears while screaming “LALALALALALALA”. Humans. Don’t. Come. From. Monkeys. I even picked on the Christians who did believe in evolution.
It took awhile for me to open up, but I finally did… first, I had to get comfortable in my faith in Jesus Christ before I could come to such a conclusion that we did, in fact, evolve. And No… Humans. Don’t. Come. From. Monkeys.
We all have genetic mutations. They happen every day. Some are inherited. Some aren’t. Some are harmful. Some aren’t. Some are irrelevant. Some aren’t. But some of these genetic mutations are passed along to future generations. This is what we call “microevolution”. This is something that has been observed, and hardly anybody disagrees that it happens. The thing about this is, that given enough time, microevolutions eventually add up into macroevolution. Macroevolution being the idea that one species can eventually evolve into something different. This would not be possible without microevolution. And this makes complete sense. It isn’t that we come from monkeys. It’s that we share a common ancestor with monkeys. Just like dogs share a common ancestor with bears and mice share a common ancestor with rats. We see it all over. But does this idea fit our Christian worldview?
What About Adam and Eve?
First, I think it’s important to realize the culture in which the Old Testament was written. The creation story mimics many stories from the surrounding areas in the middle east. Ancient Samaria is a great example as they share not only a talking, evil serpent in their creation story, but a flood story as well. It is my belief that the story of Adam and Eve was never meant to be taken literally, but to show the dominance of the one true God- the God of Israel. In other words, it shows that it wasn’t any of the Samarian gods that created the world. It was the God of Abraham. It wasn’t any of the gods of the land that hold the power to destroy humankind and the earth along with it. It is the God of Jacob.
I believe that the story of Adam and Eve gives us an important notion. It is our own fault that we give in to sin. It is our option to do good or to go against God. This is not to say I don’t believe in the spiritual side of Christianity. I believe in influences, both by the hand of God and demonic. I believe that at the heart of every temptation is a tempter and in the heart of every good action is God. I believe that apart from God, we can do no good.
I think one of the important things to note is that a story doesn’t have to be real in order for it to be true. The truth of the stories of creation and Adam and Eve is one that is timeless. One question to consider is this: did every story in the Bible have to happen in the literal sense in order for the story- the entire metanarrative- to be true?
Creation
I consider myself to be a creationist. I believe that a designer created everything we know and don’t know. I believe that includes a spiritual reality as well as a physical reality. I just believe that the theory of evolution is accurate. All biological studies are done in light of evolution. And this is an idea that isn’t going away. The great majority of biological scientists believe in it. So much so, that it is almost guaranteed that you will not come across a biologist who does not believe in evolution. And with each passing day, they are finding more and more evidence that evolution happened.
This is just a tool God used- and is still using in God’s method of creation. Honestly, I’m surprised that not enough Christians back this up with all of the evidence pointing toward evolution. I mean, I don’t want to be the one to tell God that He’s wrong in the way He chose to create. Would you?
What we need to consider
If the story of creation happened exactly the way the Bible records it, we need to consider so much… First, we have to believe that all of us came from Adam and Eve… all 6.5 billion of us and all our races and nations. We also have to believe that stars aren’t really millions, even billions of light years away (because it take billions of years for the light to reach earth). We also have to believe that Dinosaurs and Man walked the earth together- despite all evidence that it didn’t happen that way. We also have to believe that somehow, other nations existed even when Cain was around (Gen. 4). There is so much more to consider too…. But God is a God of Order, not disorder. It makes sense that God would allow us this gift to figure out exactly how he created everything, being that we are in His image. We should not take what we now know for granted.
What’s really important
It doesn’t matter how one believes God created the world. If one wants to believe the way the Bible tells it, that should be one’s own prerogative. But one has to understand that what we know now is complete human progress. It shows what we are capable of, not only as human beings, but as creations of God. In all, just be faithful to God in however you believe God created us. Be careful of how you disbelieve though… because you’ll never know… It may be the method God used in creation.
Comments (108)
What of this passage from Romans 5? Paul seems to believe in a literal Adam. And, if Adam was not literal, was the fall literal at all? Do we really have original sin?
12
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—
13
for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
14
Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
@MagisterTom - It does seem he believes in a literal Adam… and he may have. I don’t believe that Paul is omniscient and his writings would be limited to what he knew. I still believe in original sin- just that it is kind of a result of our freewill.
Did Jesus die for the sins of hominids also, or just humans?
@musterion99 - Jesus died not only for our sin, but also for the reconciliation of God and creation. To me, the question seems moot.
@jmallory - @musterion99 - So, if someone were born but died before they sinned, they are without sin? Or they are dead in their sin due to original sin? If original sin is a product of freewill, then I think it ceases to be original sin. And, if that is the case, then, wouldn’t it be better to abort babies prior to their ability to sin?
@MagisterTom - No, abortion is murder which goes against God’s commandment. That’s not a good argument against freewill. I’m not even sure why you brought that up. Does it have anything to do with the post or my comment?
@jmallory - Do you believe that the same animals that lived here on earth and died, will be in heaven?
@musterion99 - Not with your comment, but with Jimmy’s reply to it. As to original sin being a product of free will. If it was, then it would make sense for us to prevent babies from ever sinning.
And, though you asked Jimmy, not me, the animals things, I don’t know. Animals haven’t sinned, but I also don’t think they have souls. Maybe there will a better Narnia version of animals in Heaven.
@MagisterTom -
As to original sin being a product of free will. If it was, then it would make sense for us to prevent babies from ever sinning.
No it wouldn’t as I explained. It would require murder which goes against God’s commandments. It’s really a silly argument against freewill. You can do better than that.
@MagisterTom - I believe in original sin in the sense that we are born sinful- not that it came from Adam. We have that natural tendency to go against God because we are naturally curious. This is not what God’s done to us. But something that is a consequence of our freewill. No one is born sinless- even if one hasn’t sinned. The exception is Christ.
@musterion99 - I believe that animals go to heaven, yes. I’ve always believed that.
@jmallory - And all the insects like cockroaches, spiders, etc,?
@musterion99 - I have no reason to believe that they would be left out of the mix. The truth is, I don’t know and it isn’t for me to know who or what all goes to heaven. I don’t believe things simply cease to exist.
@jmallory - Interesting.
http://newsblaze.com/story/20081030171112zmil.nb/topstory.html
This was my chaplain in the Army. I’m non-denominational Christian, he’s Catholic. Look at his educational background… “He also holds a doctorate in biological sciences (molecular neurobiology) from Stanford with post-doctorate work in molecular virology at Stanford and Yale.”
Anyhoo! I love this post and your insights. There are many Christians who pursue biology… there are some who weren’t Christians…. that become Christians after pursuing biology. it depends on the person I think. I like your micro to macro approach.
People tell me dinosaurs and humans were millions of years apart. Well, we know now that the deeper the fossil is, in the ground, doesn’t signify its age. Almost every powerful civilization has some story of humans hunting or worshiping, fearing, even taming dragons. Oddly, the dragons description is like that of dinosaurs.
People mocked at the idea that large birds could’ve existed… yet, elephant birds and ostriches are there. People laughed at the idea that giant, hairy, human like creatures lived in the jungles of Africa (apes). I like your dinosaur + humans existed together at one point in time. Not necessarily a T-rex, but I’m sure a large reptile was around along the times of humans as well.
Excellent closure. recced.
@musterion99 - C. S. Lewis observed that a hell designed for humans and a heaven designed for mosquitoes could quite easily be combined.
@SirNickDon - that made me laugh =)
To quote thomas jefferson, “Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear.”
@agnophilo - Sounds like “Question everything, but hold on to the Good” 1 Thessalonians 5
Didn’t know you were spouting Christian doctrine did you?
So, the part about forming Adam from the dust and breathing life into his nostrils is not really accurate, and the part about making Eve from Adam’s rib, this too was incorrect. And then all that jazz about “and the evening and the morning were the X day” this too is WAY off. The knowledge of man, has trumped the wisdom of God. Science has proven the Bible to be false. Yeah, right. This has nothing to do with fear. It looks a lot more to me like worshiping the creation instead of the creator, denying that the world was standing out of the water and in the water, turning the truth of God into a lie…………………..heaping unto themselves teachers, having itching ears, turning away from the truth and turning after fables………ever learning but never coming to an understanding of the truth. In his letters, Paul connected these things with lust and homosexuality.
The Bible clearly shows a flow of history in real time and space. Psalm 136 gives real time and space history that links God, the creation process, Adam and Eve, Israel, and present humanity.
Psalm 136
1
Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good,
for his steadfast love endures forever.
2
Give thanks to the God of gods,
for his steadfast love endures forever.
3
Give thanks to the Lord of lords,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
The first three verses describe the person, the character, of who God is.
4to him who alone does great wonders,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
5to him who by understanding made the heavens,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
6to him who spread out the earth above the waters,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
7to him who made the great lights,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
8the sun to rule over the day,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
9the moon and stars to rule over the night,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
Verses 4-9 list acts of God in the process of creation as it happened in real time and space.
10to him who struck down the firstborn of Egypt,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
11and brought Israel out from among them,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
12with a strong hand and an outstretched arm,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
13to him who divided the Red Sea in two,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
14 and made Israel pass through the midst of it,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
15but overthrew]”=”">[a] Pharaoh and his host in the Red Sea,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
16to him who led his people through the wilderness,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
Verses 10-16 again show acts of God. This time it is a recount of Israel’s history as God saved them from the Egyptians.
17to him who struck down great kings,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
18and killed mighty kings,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
19Sihon, king of the Amorites,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
20and Og, king of Bashan,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
21and gave their land as a heritage,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
22a heritage to Israel his servant,
for his steadfast love endures forever.
In verses 17-22, the author reminds the Israelites of even more recent history.
23It is he who remembered us in our low estate,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
24and rescued us from our foes,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
25he who gives food to all flesh,
for his steadfast love endures forever.
Verses 23-24 talk directly to the author’s reader in their specific time of history. Verse 25 also connects us in this present day as a part of “all flesh.”
26Give thanks to the God of heaven,
for his steadfast love endures forever.
Verses 1-25 gives us the specific history of God, his creation, his acts in Israel, and his acts in this very present day as reasons for why He is worthy of our praise and worship; through the history of real time in real space.
This is why we cannot skip over Genesis’ account of creation or believe it to be anything other than a historical account.
In order to fully understand Genesis’ account of creation, one must understand the Jewish concept of truth. The Jewish concept of truth is not irrational. In fact, when we look at the Greek concept of truth in comparison of the Jewish concept, we find this difference. Many of the Greek philosophers saw truth as the expression of a balanced metaphysical system, like a mobile. As long as the system balanced, it could be left alnoe and considered true. The Jewish concept is the opposite of this. First, it is completely opposite from the modern concept of truth because it is concerned with that which is open to discussion, open to rationality, and is not just an existential leap. Here it is like the Greek notion. And yet, it differs from and is deeper than the Greek concept because it is rooted in that which is historical. For example, in Deuteronomy 4 and 5 Moses insisted to the Jews, “You saw! You heard!” reminding them that when they were young they themselves had seen and heard what had occurred at Mt Sinai, that is, in space-time history. Even John, later on, uses this concept of space-time history that we may believe that Jesus is the Son of God. John 20:30-31 “And many other space-time proofs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in the book: But theses are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and believing ye might have have life through his name.” When reading Jewish writings, especially Genesis, we must understand it with an insistence upon history, truth that is rooted in space and time.
Adam and Eve
Jesus treated Adam and Eve as the first pair in space and time. When the pharisees questioned him about divorce Jesus answers by quoting Genesis 1:27 and Genesis 2:24. “He answered, ‘Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?” (Matthew 19:4-5) Jesus links both Genesis 1 and 2 by indicating the first pair in space and time.
The point Paul makes in Romans 5 is strengthened by 1 Corinthians 15:21-22: “For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.” The emphasis again is on the parallel of between the historicity of Jesus Christ (whom you must remember Paul saw face to face on the road to Damascus) and the historicity of the man he here called Adam. Verse 45 continues the same emphasis: Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.” The “Thus it is written” refers to Genesis 2:7. If you don’t believe the historicity of Adam you must wonder at such a strong parallelism between Adam and Christ. For certainly Christ was a person in space and time. For Luke traces Jesus’ ancestors backwards through a list of historical characters such as David, Jesse, Jacob and Abraham, and ends as follows: “Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.” (Luke 3:38) Thus we have a triple parallelism-a parallelism between the objective, historic existence of a whole group of people we know to be historic through the Old Testament and New Testament references, the objective, historic existence of Adam and the objective existence of God himself. If we tamper with this ordinary understanding of what is written in the Bible, the structure of Christianity is reduced to only an existential leap.
@trunthepaige - Christian doctrine says a lot of things. It also says “fear of the lord is the beginning of wisdom” and that god sends people a “strong delusion” to make them believe a lie. The bible says to stone people to death and not to stone people to death, that we are saved by faith alone and that salvation requires works, etc, etc.
It is many books, not one – and contains many, often conflicting, ideas. And don’t pretend that nobody said to question reality before the bible came along. You probably think jesus was the origin of the golden rule too…
If the story of creation happened
exactly the way the Bible records it, we need to consider so much…
First, we have to believe that all of us came from Adam and Eve… all
6.5 billion of us and all our races and nations. We also have to believe
that stars aren’t really millions, even billions of light years away
(because it take billions of years for the light to reach earth). We
also have to believe that Dinosaurs and Man walked the earth together-
despite all evidence that it didn’t happen that way. We also have to
believe that somehow, other nations existed even when Cain was around
(Gen. 4). There is so much more to consider too…. But God is a God of
Order, not disorder. It makes sense that God would allow us this gift to
figure out exactly how he created everything, being that we are in His
image. We should not take what we now know for granted.
1. The estimated population of the world is about 7.5 billion and 10.5 billion by 2050. So, in less than 40 years the world’s population could jump about 3.5 billion. That’s about half of the world’s population right now! Source And you don’t believe that our population could have grown from 2 people 10,000 years ago? Especially since the life span (thus time span for childbirth) was much longer than it is now (hundreds of years!) It seems very plausible. Race can be explained through biological differences, yet the human similarities (biological and even microbiological) are still unique from any other being, living and nonliving.
2. We can believe that stars are lightyears away because God created a mature galaxy. God didn’t have to wait for the light to get to earth but created that specific light to already be here. Why would this galaxy be so complex if God had to wait for it to develop from a simple form? God did not create this world for him but for us. So why would God wait millions or billions of years for the world to develop? He certainly doesn’t need to. So why would he?
3. There are actually many accounts of dinosaurs (this term is used loosely) roaming the earth with humanity. There are many places in Africa, Asia, and South America that still have accounts of dinosaur like creatures. Most people don’t realize how much of the earth is still unexplored. There are so many remote places that dinosaurs could still exist even today. What evidence is there that they become extinct millions of years ago? (Imagine a 400 year old helia monster. Due to humans long life span in the Old Testament that’s not out of the question. And lizards never stop growing. Ask someone who owned an iguana!)
4. Other nations did not exist, but other “cities” existed. Cain and Abel were CLEARLY not Adam and Eve’s only children. We don’t even know the time frame that they were really born in. This could be a hundred years after the fall. By then Adam and Eve could have had around a hundred children who also had their own children.
5. I agree that God is a the God of order. Thus, I reject the theory of evolution. Evolutions very basis is that we are no different from the world we live in. It’s where we came from they say. But the Bible is clear that God created differences between living and nonliving, conscious life and non-conscious life, and between conscious life and life created in God’s image. By the very foundation of the Bible and who God is I reject the evolution theory as nothing more than a rebellion against God and his design.
@jmallory - Hey, I’m always happy to reply to any questions you may have regarding Biblical theology and science.
@agnophilo - First, the Bible is one of the most historically accurate documents to date. Even skeptics agree. The Hittites weren’t believed to ever have existed but archeological evidence has now proven otherwise. Historians used to believe that they didn’t exist but now say they did exist. A dictionary of their language is at the University of Chicago’s Library. Second, I have never come across conflicting ideas in the Bible. Culture certainly changed but God’s message was always the same. I am not sure what verse you are referring to when you said that god sends people a “strong delusion” to make them believe a lie. Can you give me a reference? There are instances where stoning (the Biblical version of the death penalty) where God commands it. One being murder. It holds to the idea that each human life is important and that a man who kills another man should be punished in the same way. This really is no different than the death penalty in America. And certainly it holds to basis of JUSTICE. And that is why God (and Jesus) have told people in certain situations (Cain after killing Abel and the woman who committed adultery) that they were NOT to stone/kill them. Motive makes a difference. It’s not up to us to avenge against others. “Vengeance is mine,”says the Lord.
@TheyCallMePaulNow - ”First, the Bible is one of the most
historically accurate documents to date. Even skeptics agree.”
It really isn’t. Many things in the bible have been conclusively proven not to have happened, such as the tower of babel story, noah’s flood, a literal 6 day creation etc not even going further than genesis. That some things in the bible happened does not mean all things in the bible happened, or that no elements were exaggerated. Alexander the great is a real, historical figure for instance – but historians tend to look at the texts which say he was the son of zeus immaculately conceived by a thunder bolt and born of a virgin and later fulfilled both biblical and extra-biblical prophecies… and dismiss them as bronze age superstition and exaggeration. Powerful figures and influential or charismatic leaders were not just often deified in that era, they were almost always deified or said to have mystical powers. The reason is simple – there was no science. There was no way to test or verify or document anything so almost everything was believable to most people. Again this was the era of greek mythology – people kind of had lax standards when it came to evidence.
“The
Hittites weren’t believed to ever have existed but archeological
evidence has now proven otherwise. Historians used to believe that they
didn’t exist but now say they did exist. A dictionary of their language
is at the University of Chicago’s Library.”
Lets say there was some big catastrophe, nuclear war or a meteor hits and destroys civilization. We rebuild and two thousand years from now archeologists dig up a collection of harry potter books. Are you telling me that you would believe that because the books list real people and places and countries and languages and other mundane details that the extraordinary claims must be true as well? And if so why do you not believe very common claims like virgin birth when they are made about other ancient figures?
“Second, I have never come
across conflicting ideas in the Bible.”
I can only conclude that you’re not looking hard enough. But if you like, here’s a few.
“Culture certainly changed but
God’s message was always the same.”
No, it changes radically over time.
“I am not sure what verse you are
referring to when you said that god sends people a “strong delusion” to
make them believe a lie. Can you give me a reference?”
“And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. ” (2 thess 2:11-12)
“There are
instances where stoning (the Biblical version of the death penalty)
where God commands it. One being murder.”
And another being belonging to another religion, cursing your parents, disobeying your parents, being a “witch” (which have never actually existed), being gay, and even not kicking back on the weekend just to name a few.
“It holds to the idea that each
human life is important and that a man who kills another man should be
punished in the same way.”
Yeah, that one passage does – the others do not.
“This really is no different than the death
penalty in America.”
About half of the things you get executed for in the old testament don’t even get you a fine in america, and some don’t even exist (like necromancy).
“And certainly it holds to basis of JUSTICE.”
On what planet?
“And that
is why God (and Jesus) have told people in certain situations (Cain
after killing Abel and the woman who committed adultery) that they were
NOT to stone/kill them. Motive makes a difference. It’s not up to us to
avenge against others. “Vengeance is mine,”says the Lord.”
And “kill those people over there” says the lord also. He instructed moses to have three thousand people slaughtered for failing to say they worshiped him.
This is the part where you try to justify it, pretend it’s all morally okay and act like you agree with things you would never consent to.
@TheyCallMePaulNow - This is called closed reasoning. That something falsifies a view you hold is not evidence that it is not correct. Belief without evidence is faith, belief despite evidence is delusion.
What you are doing is no different than what people do in asylums across the world, just refusing to cope with evidence.
I appreciate this well thought out and mature blog. I’m glad you are trying to approach both from a rational POV. The only thing is, if we didn’t come from Adam and Eve, then we have no Christology. There’s no serpent for the seed of woman to crush. We’re not “in Adam” initially. It messes up the Gospel.
@apb102088 - The thing about Christianity is, it goes so much deeper than that. There are so many different kinds of theology that are still considered to be orthodox. Lately, I’ve been learning much on different theologies, and in some, Adam and Eve’s sin is not necessary for our sin. But I’ll leave it at that. I’m still learning much
. Thanks for the comment even though you disagree.
Ken Miller said something along the lines of “if the earth truly is young, then God falsified evidence to make it appear old. And I don’t believe in a deceitful God.”
@jmallory - I encourage you to continue exploring and continue questioning. I promise though, Adam and Eve are necessary for the Gospel to be the Gospel, lol. Sorry to sound like a know-it-all. I had to write a paper on it so when I saw you said that, I was like whoa whoa hold up! :p Peace.
@GodlessLiberal - I have thought of that before. It’s a good point. I had a professor here who said that God created Adam as a man, not an infant, so maybe he did the same with the earth. I don’t know if I agree with that but it brought up a good point.
@MagisterTom - humanity is collectively responsible for sin, but “sin” is an umbrella term used to to refer to at least three things: (1) a relational disconnect between man and God, (2) mans’ failure in upholding his moral obligations, and (3) a condition in man that inclines him away from recognizing God and upholding his obligations. babies have not failed in moral obligations, but this does not mean that there is no relational disconnect between them and God, or that there is no sin-condition in them.
and whether or not Paul believed in a literal genesis doesn’t seem to impact whether his theological insight from genesis is true. Adam represents man. man fell. as a myth, as are all the parables, the genesis story contains rich deposits of insight into who we are as human beings.
@apb102088 - was the serpent made in God’s own likeness? if not, how was it able to communicate to Adam and Eve, and actually smarter than the two of them combined, capable of manipulation and deceit? and why was the serpent evil if the tree of good and evil hadn’t yet been eaten of? did the serpent sneak a bite when God wasn’t looking? generally, christians interpret the serpent to represent satan. but there’s absolutely no literal reference to satan. the idea that the serpent is satan implies that the serpent was not created with the rest of creation, but somehow prefers it down there (for God knows what reason).
I don’t believe in creationism because I find it to be… I don’t know how to say this politely… so I just won’t say a word. I think that the universe itself was the creator of all things, and that the universe came from nothing.
However, the was well written and I’m glad you believe in evolution as well.
I also want to mention that all modern religions spawned from Zoroastrianism; it’s in almost all college World History textbooks. Pretty much Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism stole things from it to make it their own story.
@nyclegodesi24 - If you’re really curious, Satan is called a serpent several times in Revelation. This is a good article to read. http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2008/09/05/feedback-satan-lucifer-serpent
@apb102088 - well supposing that interpretation is correct, would you have discovered that from reading genesis 1-2 literally? all the text says is that the serpent was wisest animal in the garden of eden.
@nyclegodesi24 - If one were to have never read a Bible before, and just read the first 3 chapters of Genesis, then you don’t know who/what the serpent is or what role he plays, to answer your question. It is through later revelation in the scriptures that clarity is given. But me personally, it would seem weird that the offspring of woman was going to crush the head of a physical animal. There’s clearly deep symbolism there. Let’s give credit where credit is due; there’s a reason Christianity believes the serpent to be Satan. We’re not retarded. :p
@apb102088 - heh well i agree, but i think that’s where true literalism is non-existent, where we say that the woman crushes the head of the serpent – that clearly indicates a transcending role of the serpent, and that’s where we derive the symbolism from, but once we admit of such symbolism, we treat the story as allegory.
@nyclegodesi24 - I think I might not have been clear on what I said. I don’t know how much you know about Christianity either, so I’m sure that’d help too, but, this story can’t be an allegory. We know that Christ is the seed of the woman. His heel will crush the serpent (Satan’s) head. Christ is the long-awaited promised seed/savior. This story is where we get our Christology. It’s where the Gospel is rooted.Hope that makes sense?
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It may be the method God used in creation.
of course! that just seems to obvious to me, and I’m glad you said it!
The Bible was very clear that the earth was created in six days. And on top of that, if you had evolution, you would have death and dying before Adam and Eve. Plus, Satan would have to have fallen for there to be death in the world. So there’s no way God would say that it was all “very good” at the end of creation if Satan had already fallen.
You’ve also just made Jesus and Moses liars who said that Adam introduced death into the world.
I can go into so much more detail but i won’t, considering i have too much else to do. But yeah… be careful when saying evolution jives with the Bible. It doesn’t in any way shape or form.
@TNLNSL_PRN - That way of thinking didn’t come around until the 1960′s. And that’s all I can say on that right at this minute.
@jmallory - I don’t know what you could possibly mean by that. That line of thinking has been around since the beginning of time. Its your way of thinking that’s relatively new.
@TNLNSL_PRN - Just because it’s what you’ve learned, it doesn’t make it true. The 1960′s is what gave birth to fundamentalism. You can see people who didn’t take all of the bible completely literally since the beginning of Christianity. Some examples are Origen, Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, Luther, Calvin, Wesley, all of these people (very very famous Christians) have argued that not everything in scripture is meant to be taken literally. Augustine even once said, “Perhaps Sacred Scripture in its customary style is speaking with the limitations of human language in addressing men of limited understanding … The narrative of the inspired writer brings the matter down to the capacity of children.” In other words, the bible is written by those who had a very small picture of a very big picture God was painting, so they only spoke what they understood.
Just because it’s what you’ve learned, it doesn’t make it true.
I could say the same of you.
I’ve studied this. Inside and out. I’m very knowledgeable on this subject. And the fact is… you’re wrong. I’m sorry, but you’re wrong.
And your thinking on this??? So ignorant i can’t even comment. Read up on the subject and THEN comment on it. I have zero respect for Christians who stand up for evolution. Why??? Because it means (1) you have no spine whatsoever and (2) you know nothing of the Bible. Nothing.
@jmallory - P.S. I have more respect for the atheist than i do for the evolutionary theist. At least the atheist doesn’t sit on a fence, trying to get everyone to like him.
@TNLNSL_PRN - This is all I have to contribute on the matter: http://www.catholic.com/library/Adam_Eve_and_Evolution.asp
@TNLNSL_PRN - Wouldn’t my last comment suggest that I’ve done quite a bit of reading on this subject?
@jmallory - Don’t worry too much about her. Her idea of a legitimate argument is that the more forcefully you say “I’m right, you’re wrong”, the stronger it is.
@QuantumStorm - I don’t worry about her. A person can only cover his ears and scream for so long before he has to take a breath…
@TNLNSL_PRN - Though I will say that I don’t think Christianity and evolution are compatible (or at least the Bible and evolution), I will say that you’re making this shit way too personally and you need to back off. Frankly there’s no evidence of Jmallory trying to get everyone to like him; he’s just listing his personal convictions and that doesn’t give you any right to be a bully.
I’m an agnostic, but I’d say you’re also compromising your beliefs in the Bible. Does it say anything about bullying someone on the internet (or in real life) because they disagree with you? No. Does it say something about loving your neighbor as yourself? Yes. Is that conditional? No.
I suggest you take a good hard look at yourself. Frankly, I don’t want respect from someone like you.
@jmallory - No. Not if you accept evolution as compatible with the Bible.
At least, you haven’t read enough of the Bible.
@InternetDominator - That may be the MOST ridiculous comment i’ve ever read in my entire life. Seriously, you at least hit top 3 dude.
@TNLNSL_PRN - Care to demonstrate how or are you just reacting on a knee-jerk basis?
@QuantumStorm - I have no respect for the Catholic belief on anything… much less evolution.
@InternetDominator - No knee jerk reaction here. That’s ridiculous. This IS personal. Anyone who calls my God a liar has hit me on a personal level. I get that YOU don’t understand that, but he should, if he truly has a relationship with God.
@TNLNSL_PRN - I haven’t read enough of the Bible? Why do you say that?
@jmallory - I love how you’re siding with those who don’t believe the Bible here. It shows you have no spine.
@TNLNSL_PRN - I didn’t know you had no respect for the Catholic beliefs that Jesus was fully human and fully divine, or that the Bible is the inspired word of God, or the belief in a Trinitarian God, or that He suffered and died for our sins, or that He was born of the virgin Mary… Oh my. Looks like someone’s not reading her Bible.
@jmallory - Because you fall for evolution. Period.
@QuantumStorm - Please. Give me a break.
@TNLNSL_PRN - In reply to the comment made to InternetDominator, If God indeed did use evolution as a tool in creation, you are calling God a liar simply because the bible says something different.
@TNLNSL_PRN - He’s not calling God a liar so much as he’s simply calling into question the infallibility of the Bible. If you have an argument, then present it and quit your childishness. If you don’t have one, then kindly step away. People like you are ruining what could be civil discourse online.
And again, there’s nothing in the Bible about beating your debate opponent with an imaginary stick. The character of Jesus in the NT wouldn’t do such a thing.
And sorry, but calling my comment ridiculous without even so much as an ounce of reason is a knee-jerk reaction.
@TNLNSL_PRN - Jmallory may have no spine, but you’re too big for your britches. Quit bullying and shut up.
@TNLNSL_PRN - That doesn’t mean I haven’t read enough of the Bible at all. That means I realize the time, culture, and context in which the text was written.
I truly worry for you. I am fearful for you. But there is so much you don’t know about the Bible, though you pretend you do. I leave now. Nothing makes me angrier than a “Christian” who sits on the fence because he has no backbone. And i’m not here to be angry.
Good bye.
@InternetDominator - I never ruined it. I was civil until all of you jumped in with your unwarranted opinions which mean nothing. I still am civil. Telling someone he doesn’t know the Bible is hardly uncivil.
@TNLNSL_PRN - Nope, clearly you don’t respect the beliefs in a Trinitarian God, or that Jesus is fully human and divine, etc. etc. (You DID say you don’t respect Catholic beliefs on anything… well guess what? Those are Catholic beliefs too) Sooooo yeah. Go troll somewhere else, like with the scientologists. They’re REALLY good at the whole “attack the person and not the argument” tactic… you could learn a thing or two from them.
@jmallory - LMAO!!!! That may be the funniest thing i’ve EVER heard.
@TNLNSL_PRN - Take care
@QuantumStorm - I’ve dealt with you before, though you don’t know it. And its funny that you call me a troll since you trolled me for ages.
Get over yourself.
@TNLNSL_PRN - Care to explain?
@InternetDominator - You call bullying because you have no real response? Really??
@jmallory - What? If you want to message me privately, that’s fine. But i won’t deal with these others anymore.
@TNLNSL_PRN - I’d like to know why you think that knowing the time, culture and context of the text is so funny. Could you please explain that to me?
@TNLNSL_PRN - Actually I know what your previous profile was, based on your current profile pic. Trolled you for ages, huh? Wanna back that up? Yeah, I figured as much. Have fun at the next scientology meeting!
@jmallory - Message me if you really want to know. We can discuss it there.
@TNLNSL_PRN - My “unwarranted” opinions? This is where I sarcastically say, “bitch, PLEASE!” I offered to you a reasonable reaction to what is clearly bullying (I’ll get to that in a second) and all you can say to me is that my comment is “ridiculous.” Obviously you’ve never even so much as read the rules of a civil and intelligent debate. “Nuh uh” is not a good argument. Sorry.
You were clearly bullying because you flat-out told him that he has no spine. You said he knows nothing of the Bible when, if you look back through his page, he knows plenty. You call him a false Christian, even though there’s nothing in the Bible about evolutionists not being able to become Christians. Yeah, you were out of line, and you did much more than tell him that he doesn’t know the Bible.
Seriously, pluck the fucking piece of plywood out of your eye before you try to take out the speck in the other. That little parable should sound familiar to you, and if it doesn’t, I suggest you fall more in line with your religion. If it does sound familiar but you don’t think it applies to you, then I suggest you start doing an observation about how you conducted himself, and how the character of Jesus would have. I have zero respect for hypocrites like yourself, so I suggest straightening yourself out.
@TNLNSL_PRN - I believe everyone involved has the right to know why it’s funny as well. After all, they read the rest of it, they should read why knowing the time, culture and the context of the stories of the bible is some big joke.
@jmallory - Your god is fake, a myth, just like all others before him. There. Was that disrespectful enough? I hope so.
Evolution is a fact, and natural selection is the best explanation there is for that fact. The evidence is irrefutable. You’ve just pulled the wool over your own eyes, and it’s sad. Well, it’s also funny.
@InternetDominator - Never
once did i call him a false Christian. I said he doesn’t know the
bible. He doesn’t if he REALLY believes that evolution is compatible
with it. Period.
I really am done here. Y’all accuse me of bullying and yet three of
y’all gang up on me, especially when I DIDN’T ASK YOU. Seriously, get
over yourself.
@jmallory - No they don’t…. especially since i never once invited them into the conversation. And i never said that. You did.
@In_Reason_I_Trust - Uh. Did you miss the part where jmallory is clearly stating that he’s a theistic evolutionist or did you hit the wrong reply button?
@TNLNSL_PRN - ” Anyone who calls my God a liar has hit me on a personal level.”
It hits you personally, huh? Well if it does, control your emotions. That’s what people with REAL backbone do, you know, instead of just lashing out at others because they hit a SOFT SPOT. Deal with it and act like a mature, Christian adult instead of resorting to personal attacks. You perceiving that others are calling your God a liar, doesn’t justify you name-calling in response. Think about what Jesus said regarding an “eye for an eye”.
But don’t mind me… after all, I ain’t the scientologist here.
@TNLNSL_PRN - Oh I’m fine, believe me. Matter of fact, I’m having a pretty damn good day! Hassling a bully like yourself is what I do for fun, don’t ya know!
Actually, in one of your comments you put “Christian” in quotes. Me and Jmallory were merely responding to what you were giving us, while he never said anything offensive to you whatsoever. QuantumStorm was just hashing the mud that you slinged at him first because the idea of evolution is so offensive to you. I was merely responding to your condemnations. That in and of itself is not bullying; calling out a bully is not bullying. Also, the whole “you’re the one that did it” does not adequately respond to accusations of bullying.
If you’re done here, then leave. And don’t let me catch you misbehaving on other peoples’ websites, or you’ll be hearing from me again!
@QuantumStorm - What really worries me about your comment is you’re telling me that when someone insults Christ that doesn’t hurt you on a personal level…
@InternetDominator - LMAO!!! First, i never spoke to you in the first place. So the only one doing the bullying is you and QS.
Second, really? Are you serious?? Are you the internet police??? What are you going to do?? Arrest me??? That’s hilarious.
@InternetDominator - Oops. Yes, my comment was intended for @TNLNSL_PRN -
Sorry, jmallory.
@TNLNSL_PRN - Hmmm, thought you were “done.” I guess not.
That’s a non-sequitur. Just because I start talking to you doesn’t mean I’m bullying you. Coming in a situation where the bully is bullying another and trying to stop it is not bullying. If that was the case, then a reasonable adult trying to discipline a bully is a bully himself.
And I might not arrest you, but I will be calling you out for the shit you say whether you like it or not. Seriously, I have no tolerance for immaturity.
@In_Reason_I_Trust - It’s cool.
@TNLNSL_PRN - No.. you said it was the funniest thing you ever heard, remember? And it isn’t up to you to invite people into a conversation on my blog, is it?
@InternetDominator - Let me ask you a question. First, how on earth was i bullying him? I mean, seriously??? I disagreed, told him he didn’t know the Bible if he agreed with evolution (which YOU agreed with) and that was it. I didn’t start getting defensive until you and QS came along and started harrassing me.
Admittedly, i’m a little intoxicated. (Jmallory, if that’s affecting how i’m reacting you, personally, i will say i’m sorry. But people like this piss me off to no end. I’ve dealt with it on Xanga since 03 and its getting MIGHTY old.)
However, that does NOT give you the right to come along, butt in, and act as if you’re God, InternetDominator. Because you’re not. Guess what… i’m ALLOWED to disagree. I’m even allowed to say that person doesn’t know what they are talking about. Happens to me all the freaking time.
I have no issues with JMallory (though right now i have a serious issue with you). What i take issue with is Christians who can’t stand up and say, “The Bible doesn’t allow for evolution.” Believe it or not, i have principles.
I really am not coming back now. I’ve messaged the author and if he wants to write me that’s fine. But i won’t put up with your harassment any longer. And YES. You are the one harassing.
@jmallory - It is when they are responding to me.
@TNLNSL_PRN - No, I’m saying that you should control your emotions more when you are responding to such alleged attacks. If it hurts, it hurts. But that doesn’t justify this sort of immature, emotional outburst.
@TNLNSL_PRN - Actually, a metaphorical interpretation of the Genesis creation story is at least as old as Philo (a Jewish philosopher who lived at the time of Jesus).
@TNLNSL_PRN - Hold up a second… The bible has no room for evolution, but it allows for intoxication?
@nyclegodesi24 - There are even some midrashim and Talmudic references that predate Jesus’ time, which suggested non-literal interpretations of the creation account.
@jmallory - Nope… and you’re right to call me out. I was just being honest. My reasons for it are personal and i don’t feel like going there. But at least i know i’m in the wrong in that respect.
@QuantumStorm - Its not immature. What’s immature is y’all ganging up on me when you had no right to.
@jmallory - Only spineless people don’t get intoxicated.
@QuantumStorm - I haven’t studied midrash =I
@nyclegodesi24 - I haven’t much either, but I ran into a few references here and there some time back when studying allegorical interpretations of Genesis. Of the little I’ve studied, I think most of what I DO remember from the midrash, if anything, dealt with the concept of celibacy. I could be confusing that with the Talmud. *Shrugs*
@TNLNSL_PRN - Look, you’ve already admitted you’re drunk. Go sleep it off and then come back and see exactly how much of a fool you’ve made yourself into.
@TNLNSL_PRN - I’ve addressed that already. You said he doesn’t have any spine just because of his opinion, and because he’s “siding” with me, twice or more, I can’t remember. While simultaneously saying that you’re not bullying him, you also said that he deserved what you said simply because, again, he doesn’t agree with you. That just shows that you have no ability to be able to control your own emotions. Take a step back and at least try to be rational. You got defensive before I even butted in and decided to go on a rampage. Seriously, just look back a page or two; anyone can read what you said, unless you delete your comments, in which case, you’re a coward.
If you don’t have anything personal against Jmallory, then why do you have to call him a “Christian” implying that he doesn’t give a shit what the Bible says, etc., and say he’s spineless? I don’t need to explain why that is simply not conducive to intelligent discussion; it is self-evident, period.
Maybe you should lay off the liquor before you start talking about serious subjects. Ever think of that?
Yes, you’re allowed to disagree. That doesn’t mean that you should going on a rampage like you did and overreacting. I am not trying to be God; I am simply calling you out for your misbehavior. I am well within my right to do that, and you have no right to pretend like you’re the one being bullied simply because you get called out for bullying. That’s a little Lobornlyte trick, and I’m sick of seeing THAT. Again, you’re allowed to disagree and take issue with what he’s saying, but personal insults are wrong. Anyone with a working pair of eyes can see you went on the freaking rampage.
Please tell me why you have an issue with me. Again, as I keep telling you, all I’ve done is call you out for misbehavior. Get over it.
Are you really done this time? I hope so.
@TNLNSL_PRN - I don’t care if you know you are wrong or not… Believing in evolution is not a sin, drunkenness is… so I’d be careful with your call outs, if I were you.
@nyclegodesi24 - I’ll stick around the fence with the rest of my spineless friends.
@jmallory - Yes, it is.
@TNLNSL_PRN - Can you direct me to a place in scripture that makes that claim please… I’ll even settle if you point me to something closely resembling it.
@jmallory - There’s tons of scripture on it. Not on evolution, itself but on calling Jesus a liar and on why He couldn’t possibly be.
The best i can do for you tonight is to point you to Answers In Genesis. http://www.answersingenesis.org.
Take it or leave it. After this garbage, and dealing with it for years on Xanga, i think its time for this age old Xangan to say goodbye.
@TNLNSL_PRN - I’ll leave it. Answers in Genesis is pseudoscience. Can you please point me to one verse that says all of the Bible is literal at least?
@TheyCallMePaulNow - No response?
@TNLNSL_PRN - Answers in genesis lies about science, a lot. And promotes frauds debunked decades ago like the ica stones as genuine.